Margaret Sullivan, who fell in love with journalism in part because of the Watergate reporting of the Washington Post, brought her career at the Post to an end in August, shortly after the 50-year anniversary of the break-in that ended Nixon’s presidency.

Sullivan, whose storied career in journalism took her from top editor of the Buffalo News to public editor of the New York Times and finally to media columnist at the Washington Post, has spent much of the last several years warning about alarming changes to the media landscape.

Those changes — which Sullivan discussed on this week’s episode of The Interview — include her belief that Watergate would not have ended a presidency if it happened today.

She attributes that disturbing notion to declining trust in institutions like the news media, as well as the extent to which media outlets like Fox News relentlessly defend figures like Donald Trump, enabling Republican politicians and voters to turn a blind eye to his misdeeds.

Sullivan also sees those factors as potent threats to democracy.

“I actually can say, and I think without any hyperbole, that I think the United States is on the brink of losing our democracy,” she said. “The core tenet, which is free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power after elections, is threatened.”

Sullivan wants journalists to “rise to the occasion” given this “hinge point in American history.”

“They need to rethink their practices and rethink their all kinds of ways they go about their jobs and not just do it the same old way,” she said.

Sullivan wants to help shape that rethink by sharing what she’s learned over her 42-year newspaper career in her upcoming book, Newsroom Confidential: Lessons (and Worries) from an Ink-Stained Life.

See highlights from our conversation below.

On how the media should cover threats to democracy without being partisan

I think the hardest thing to do is to show these threats, which I think can be done just by stating what’s going on very clearly and by framing stories or broadcasts in an appropriate way. And when I say framing, I’m talking about how we present things to the public. We throw that word around, framing. I don’t think people necessarily know what it means. But with every headline, with every paragraph, with every spoken word, we’re making choices. So let’s make the choices that show things the way they are. I think we can do that, and it’s honestly not that hard to do if we’re aware. I think the harder thing to do, and it’s very important, is to not appear like we’re partisan. We’re not. It’s not about being on the team of Trump’s rivals, opponents, whatever. And it’s not all about Trump. It’s about people who are running for state office, it’s about people who are running for other federal offices. And I’m not talking about opinion journalists here. I’m talking about news journalists. It’s totally inappropriate for them to be on somebody’s side, but it’s not inappropriate for them to tell the truth in such a clear way that news consumers, also known as citizens, can make these decisions for themselves, which is what people want to do.

I often hear people say, stop being so opinionated, just give me the facts. And I understand that impulse. It’s not wrong. And every time we do a news story, every time we go on the air, we’re making kinds of choices. What story are we doing? How exactly are we telling it? What is the headline? What’s the news alert? What’s the tweet? What photograph are we using? What footage are we using? Every one of those things is a choice that is important. And I don’t think it has to be partisan. I think it has to be truthful. And right now, telling the truth is not only really important, but it will lead a lot of people to the conclusion that Trump and his allies are dangerous.

On what she says to those who argue Fox News is no different in its bias from CNN or MSNBC

Well, that’s wrong. I say, you’re wrong. Because while it is true that people go to cable news to get their outrage on, and that’s somewhat true across the board, Fox is different in that it so often is unhinged from reality. And if you’re looking at somebody like Tucker Carlson’s show, I mean, this is someone who basically has signed on to anti-democratic and even fascistic beliefs. This is a very destructive force. He’s got a big audience. He’s really influential. He’s also out of control. It doesn’t seem like the brass at Fox or the Murdochs have any interest in reining him in. That’s true to a lesser extent with others of the prime time stars. So, no, I don’t think these are equal. There are different politics, different political points of view on CNN and on MSNBC. But you can’t really compare them to Fox because they’re nowhere near as as extreme in their direction or as unhinged from the truth as Fox is on the right.

On clashes inside newsrooms like the Washington Post and the New York Times

It’s weird, I guess in a way, because my age and experience would suggest that I would be in sympathy with the old school folks. But I find that for the most part, I’m more in sympathy with the so-called woke journalists who are trying to change things. Clearly, sometimes people go too far on Twitter or make those kinds of mistakes. But I think there’s a democratizing thing that’s going on in newsrooms in which people who haven’t had very much power are finding their voices and finding their power. And sometimes it has to do with underrepresentation for women, for people of color. Without going through chapter and verse on these individual things, which I really don’t want to do here, although I certainly have opinions about all of them, some of which are in my book, I think that newsrooms are changing and we can see that happening. And it’s not always very comfortable and it’s not always very pretty. It’s disruptive and it can also be positive.

We also discussed why she left the Post after six years as the paper’s media columnist, how the press should cover Trump if he decides to run in 2024, and the future of local news. Download the full episode here, and subscribe to The Interview on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

The post Margaret Sullivan on Leaving the Post, Tucker Carlson’s ‘Fascistic’ Beliefs, and Why She Fears Democracy is on the Brink first appeared on Mediaite.

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